Notes and Queries, Number 59, December 14, 1850

Query: Why have the men of Gotham been long famous for their extreme folly?

My authorities are,—

1. The Nursery Rhyme,—

"Three wise men of Gotham
Went to sea in a bowl;
If the bowl had been stronger,
My story would have been longer."

2. Drunken Barnaby's Journal (edit. London, 1822, p. 25.), originally printed 1774, London:

"Veni Gotham, ubi multos
Si non omnes, vidi stultos,
Nam scrutando reperi unam
Salientem contra lunam
Alteram nitidam puellam
Offerentem porco sellam."

"Thence to Gotham, where, sure am I,
If, though not all fools, saw I many;
Here a she-bull found I prancing,
And in moonlight nimbly dancing;
There another wanton mad one,
Who her hog was set astride on."

3. In the "Life of Robin Hood" prefixed to Ritson's Collection of Ballads concerning Robin Hood (People's edit. p. 27.), the following story, extracted from Certaine Merry Tales of the Madmen of Gottam, by Dr. Andrew Borde, an eminent physician, temp. Hen. VIII. (Black letter), in Bodleian Library, occurs:—

"There was two men of _Gottam, and the one of them was going to the market to Nottingham to buy sheepe, and the other came from the market; and both met together upon Nottingham bridge. Well met, said the one to the other. Whither be yee going? said he that came from Nottingham. Marry, said he that was going thither, I goe to the market to buy sheepe. Buy sheepe? said the other, and which way wilt thou bring them home? Marry, said the other, I will bring them over this bridge. By Robin Hood, said he that came from Nottingham, but thou shalt not. By Maid Marrion, said he that was going thitherward, but I will. Thou shalt not, said the one. I will, said the other. Ter here! said the one. Shue there! said the other. Then they beat their staves against the ground, one against the other, as there had been an hundred sheepe betwixt them. Hold in, said the one. Beware the leaping over the bridge of any sheepe, said the other. I care not, said the other. They shall not come this way, said the one. But they shall, said the other. Then said the other, and if that thou make much to doe, I will put my finger in thy mouth. A t..d thou wilt, said the other. And as they were at their contention, another man of Gottam came from the market with a sack of meale upon a horse, and seeing and hearing his neighbours at strife for sheepe, and none betwixt them, said, Ah, fooles, will you never learn wit? Helpe me, said he that had the meale, and lay my sacke upon my shoulder. They did so and he went to the one side of the bridge, and unloosed the mouth of the sacke, and did shake out all his meale into the river. Now, neighbours, said the mall, how much meale is there in my sacke now? Marry, there is none at all, said they. Now, by my faith, said he, even as much wit as in your two heads, to strive for that thing you have not. Which was the wisest of all these three persons, judge you?"

4. Tom Coryat, in an oration to the Duke of York (afterwards Chas. I.), called Crambe, or Colwarts twice sodden (London, 1611), has this passage:—

"I came to Venice, and quickly took a survey of the whole model of the city, together with the most remarkable matters thereof; and shortly after any arrival in England I overcame any adversaries in the Town of Evill, in my native county of Somersetshire, who thought to have sunk me in a bargain of pilchards, as the wise men of Gottam went about to drown an eel."

5. Dr. More's Antidote against Atheism, cap. ii. § 14.:

"But because so many bullets joggled together in a man's hat will settle a determinate figure, or because the frost and wind will draw upon doors and glass windows pretty uncouth streaks like feathers and other fooleries which are to no use or purpose, try infer thence, that all the contrivances that are in nature, even the frame of the bodies, both of men and beasts, are from no other principle but the jumbling together of the matter, and so because that this doth naturally effect something, that is the cause of all things, seems to me to be reasoning in the same mood and figure with that wise market man's, who, going down a hill and carrying his cheeses under his arms, one of them falling and trundling down the hill very fast, let the other go after it appointing them all to meet him at his house at Gotham, not doubting but they beginning so hopefully, would be able to make good the whole journey; or like another of the same town, who perceiving that his iron trevet he had bought had three feet, and could stand, expected also that it should walk too, and save him the labour of the carriage."

6. Col. T. Perronet Thompson's Works, vol. ii. p. 236., Anti-Corn-Law Tracts:—

"If fooleries of this kind go on, Gotham will be put in Schedule A., and the representation of Unreason transferred into the West Riding."

    J.R.M., M.A.
    K.C.L. Nov. 26. 1850.

HERSTMONCEUX CASTLE

Can you find an early place in your pages for the following Queries relative to the history of Herstmonceux Castle and its lords, on which a memoir is in preparation for the next volume of the collections of the Sussex Archæological Society.

1. Who was Pharamuse of Boulogne, father of Sybil de Tingry? He is called the nephew of Maud, King Stephen's wife; but I believe there is no doubt that she was the only child and sole heir of Eustace Earl of Boulogne, brother of Godfrey, King of Jerusalem. Where is Tingry, of which place he was lord? Is there any place in the North of France bearing that name now?

2. Will any one well skilled in the interpretation of ancient legal documents furnish some explanation of the following extracts from the Rotul. de Fin. (Hardy, i. 19.):—

"1199. William de Warburton and Ingelram de Monceux give 500 marks to the king for having the inheritance of Juliana, wife of William, son of Aymer, whose next of kin they say they are."

Yet six years later, 1205 (Hardy, i. 310 )—

"Waleran de Monceux gives 100 marks for having the reasonable (rationabilis) part of the inheritance of Juliana, as regards (versus) Wm. de Warburton, William and Waleran being her next of kin."

This Waleran was son of Idonea de Herst (now Herst Monceux), and appears in other documents as "Waleran de Herst." The land in question was in Compton (afterwards Compton Monceux), Hants.

Now how are we to reconcile the two above-quoted documents? What was the connexion between Ingelram and Waleran? And how is Waleran's double appellation to be explained? I see a reference to a family named de Mounceaux in the last number of the Archæological Journal, p. 300., holding a manor near Hawbridge, Somerset Were they of the same stock?

3. The magnificent monument in Herstmonceux church to Thomas Lord Dacre (who died 1534), and his eldest son, is embellished with a considerable number of coats of arms, several of which I am unable to identity with any connexions of the family. These are,—(1.) Sable, a cross or; (2.) Barry of six, ar. and az., a bend gules; (3.) Arg. a fesse gules; (4.) Quarterly or, and gules, an escarbuncle sable; (5.) Barry of six, arg. and gules; (6.) Azure, an orle of martlets or, on an inescutcheon arg. three bass gules.

Can any of your readers, acquainted with the Dacre and Fienes pedigrees, appropriate any of these coats?

4. A suite of small bed-rooms, and the gallery from which they opened, in Herstmonceux Castle, were called respectively the Bethlem Chambers and Bethlem Gallery: is any instance of a similar denomination of apartments known, and can the reason be assigned?

5. Sir Roger Fienes, the builder of Herstmonceux Castle, accompanied Henry V. to Agincourt. Are any references to him to be found in Sir H. Nicolas' Battle of Azincourt, or elsewhere?

6. Francis Lord Dacre was one of the noble twelve who had the courage to appear in their places in the House of Lords and reject the ordinance for the trial of Charles I. His son Thomas, who married the daughter of Charles II. by the Duchess of Cleveland, and was created Earl of Sussex, was compelled through his extravagance to alienate the castle and manor of Herstmonceux. Are there any references to either of these peers, who played a not inconspicuous part in the events of their times, in any of the contemporary memoirs? Any information on any of the above points would greatly oblige

    E.V.
    Herstmonceux, Nov. 18.

MINOR QUERIES

Yorkshire Ballads.—Any of your readers would confer a great favour by referring me to any early Yorkshire ballads, or ballads relating to places in Yorkshire, not reprinted in the ordinary collections, such as Percy, Evans, &c. I am of course acquainted with those in the Roxburghe collection.

    H.

Ringing a Handbell before a Corpse.—Is it true that whenever an interment takes place in Christ Church Cathedral, Oxford, the corpse is preceded on its way to the grave by a person who rings a small handbell at intervals, each time giving a few tinkling strokes? My informant on this subject was an Oxford undergraduate, who said that he had recently witnessed the burials both of Mr. –, a late student of Christ Church, and of Miss –, daughter of a living bishop: and he assured me that in both cases this ceremony was observed. Certainly it is possible to go through the academical course at Oxford without either hearing the bell, or knowing of its use on such occasions: but I should now be glad to receive some explanation of this singular custom.

    A.G.
    Ecclesfield.

Church of St. Saviour, Canterbury.—Tradition, I believe, has uniformly represented that an edifice more ancient, but upon the present site of St. Martin's, Canterbury, was used by St. Augustine and his followers in the earliest age of Christianity in this country. St. Martin's has, on that account, been often spoken of as the mother-church of England. Lately, however, in perusing the fourth volume of Mr. Kemble's Codex Diplomaticus, p. 1. I find a charter of King Canute, of the year 1018, which states the church of ST. SAVIOUR, Canterbury, to be the mother-church of England:

"Æcclesia Salvatoris in Dorobernia sita, omnium Æcclesiarum regni Angligeni mater et domina."

In none of the histories of Kent or of Canterbury can I find any mention of a church dedicated to St. Saviour. May I beg the favour of you to insert this among your Notes?

    HENRY ELLIS.

Mock Beggar's Hall.—What is the origin of this name as applied to some old mansions? One at Wallasey, in Cheshire, was so named, and another near Ipswich, in Suffolk. And what is the earliest instance of the title?

    BURIENSIS.