Notes and Queries, Number 65, January 25, 1851

There are some difficulties in Dugdale's account of the Cobham family which it may be well to bring before your readers; especially as several other historians and genealogists have repeated Dugdale's account without remarking on its inconsistencies. In speaking of a junior branch of the family, he says, in vol. ii. p. 69., "There was also Ralphe de Cobham, brother of the first-mentioned Stephen." He only mentions one Stephen but names him twice, first at page 66., and again at 69. Perhaps he meant the above-mentioned Stephen. He continues:—

"This Ralphe took to wife Mary Countess of Norfolk, widdow of Thomas of Brotherton. Which Mary was Daughter to William Lord Ros, and first married to William Lord Braose of Brembre; and by her had Issue John, who 20 E. III., making proof of his age, and doing his Fealty, had Livery of his lands."

At page 64. of the same volume he states that Thomas de Brotherton died in 12 Edward III., which would be only eight years before his widow's son, by a subsequent husband, is said to have become of age. That he did become of age in this year we have unquestionable evidence. In Cal. Ing. P. Mortem, vol. iv. p. 444., we find this entry:—

"Anno 20 Edw. III. Johannes de Cobham, Filius et Hæres Radulphi de Cobeham defuncti. Probatio ætatis."

There is also abundant proof that Thomas de Brotherton died in 12 Edward III. The most natural way of removing this difficulty would be to conclude that John de Cobham was the son of Ralph by a previous marriage. But here we have another difficulty to encounter. He is not only called the son of Mary, Countess of Norfolk, or Marishall, by Dugdale, but in all contemporaneous records. See Rymer's Foed., vol. vi. p. 136.; Rot. Orig., vol. ii. p. 277.; Cal. Rot. Pat., p. 178., again at p. 179.; Cal. Ing. P. Mortem, vol. iii. pp. 7. 10. Being the son-in-law of the Countess, he was probably called her son to distinguish him from a kinsman of the same name, or because of her superior rank. She is frequently styled the widow, and sometimes the wife of Thomas de Brotherton, even after the death of her subsequent husband, Sir Ralph de Cobham. In the escheat at her death she is thus described:—

"Maria Comitissa Norfolc', uxor Thome de Brotherton, Comitis Norfolc', Relicta Radi de Cobeham, Militis."

It is remarkable that this discrepancy in Sir John Cobham's age, and the time of his supposed mother's marriage with his father, has never before, as far as my knowledge extends, been noticed by any of the numerous writers who have repeated Dugdale's account of this family.

Before concluding I will mention another mistake respecting the Countess which runs through most of our county histories where she is named. For a short period she became an inmate of the Abbey of Langley, and is generally stated to have entered it previously to her marriage with Sir Ralph de Cobham. Clutterbuck, in his History of Hertfordshire (vol. ii. p. 512.), for instance, relates the circumstance in these words:—

"In the 19th year of the reign of Edward III., she became a nun in the Abbey of Langley, in the country of Norfolk; but quitting that religious establishment, she married Sir Ralph Cobham, Knt., and died anno 36 Edward III."

By Cal. Ing. P. Mortem, vol. i. p. 328., we find that Ralph Cobham died 19th Edward III.[2 - If my copy be correct, it is 19 Edw. II. in the printed calendar: but it must have been Edw. III., for, from the possessions described, it must have been Sir Ralph Cobham who married the widow of Thomas de Brotherton.], that is, the same year in which the Countess entered the Abbey, from whence we may conclude that she retired there to pass in seclusion the period of mourning.

    W. HASTINGS KELKE.

HENRY CHETTLE

Dr. Rimbault, in the introduction to his edition of Kind-Hearts' Dream, for the Percy Society, says, "Of the author, Henry Chettle, very little is known: … we are ignorant of the time and place of his birth or death, and of the manner in which he obtained his living." (Pp. vii. viii.) I trouble you with this note in the hope that it may furnish him with a clue to further particulars of Henry Chettle.

Hutchins (Hist. of Dorset., vol. i. p. 53. ed. 1774) mentions a family named Chettle, which was seated at Blandford St. Mary from 1547 to about 1690, and gives the following names as lineal successors to property in that parish: Henry Chettle, ob. 1553. John, s. and h., ob. 1590. Edward, s. and h., ob. 1609, "leaving Henry, his son and heir, eleven years nine months old." Among the burials for the same parish (p. 57.) occurs "Henry Chettle, Esq., 1616;" and at pp. 119. 208. the marriage of "Henry Chettle, Gent., and Susan Chaldecot, 1610." This last extract is from the register of the parish of Steple, in the Isle of Purbeck, which also contains, says Hutchins, many notices of the Chettle family; but all, I should infer, subsequent to the year 1610.

I have ascertained that the statement in Hutchins corresponds with the entry in the register of Blandford St. Mary, of the burial of Henry Chettle in 1616; and that there is no entry of the baptism of any one of that name. In fact, the registers only begin in 1581. Now it is clear that there were two persons of this name living at the same time, viz. H.C., aged eleven years in 1609; and H.C., who marries in 1610. And if the conjecture of the learned editor be correct, as probably it is, that the poet, Henry Chettle, "died in or before the year 1607," it is equally clear that he was a third of the same name, and that he could not be the person whose name occurs as buried in 1616. But the name is not a common one, and there seems sufficient to warrant further research into this subject. I venture, therefore, to make these two suggestions in the form of Queries:

I. Can any internal evidence be gathered from the writings of Henry Chettle, as to his family, origin, and birthplace? Kind-Heart's Dream, the only one of his works which I have either seen or have the means of consulting, contains nothing specific enough to connect him with Dorset, or the West. It would seem, indeed, as if he were acquainted with the New Forest, but not better than with Essex, and other parts adjacent to London.

II. Would it not be worth while to search the Heralds' Visitations for the county of Dorset, the Will-office, and the Inquisitions "post mortem?" The family was of some consequence, and is mentioned even in Domesday-book as holding lands in the county. Hutchins blazons their arms—Az. 3 spiders, or; but gives no pedigree of the family.

    E.A.D.

COVERDALE'S BIBLE

We are told by Mr. Granville Penn, in the Preface to the Annotations to the Book of the New Covenant, that "in 1535 Coverdale printed an English translation of the Old Testament, to which he annexed Tyndale's revision of the New, probably revised by himself. These last constitute what is called Coverdale's Bible. Now, the title-page of Coverdale's Bible expressly states that it was faithfully and truly translated out of Douche and Latyn into Englishe;" and that this is literally true may be seen by comparing any portion of it with the common German version of Luther. The following portion is taken quite at hazard from the original edition; and I have added Tyndale's version of 1526, as edited by Mr. Offor:

1535

JOHN, VI. 41

Thē murmured the Iewes ther ouer, that he sayde: I am y

bred which is come downe from heauē, and they sayde: Is not this Iesus, Iosephs sonne, whose father and mother we knowe? How sayeth be then, I am come downe from heauē? Iesus answered, and sayde vnto them: Murmur not amonge youre selues. No man can come vnto me, excepte the father which hath sent me, drawe him. And I shal rayse him vp at the last daye. It is wrytten in the prophetes: They shal all be taughte of God. Who so euer now heareth it of the father and lerneth it, commeth vnto me. Not that eny man hath sene the father, saue he which is of the father, the same hath sene the father.

Luther

41 Da murreten die Juden daruber, das er sagte: Ich bin das brodt, das vom himmel gekommen ist.

42 Und sprachen; Ist dieser nicht Jesus, Joseph's sohn, dess vater und mutter wir kennen? Wie spricht er denn: Ich bin vom himmel gekommen?

43 Jesus antwortete, und sprach zu ihnen: Murret nicht unter einander.

44 Es kann niemand zu mir kommen, es sey denn, das ihn ziche der Vater, der mich gesandt hat; und Ich werde ihn auferwecken am jungsten tage.

45 Es stehet geschrieben in den propheten: Sie werden alle von Gott gelehret seyn. Wer es nun höret vom Vater, und lernet es, der kommt zu mir.

46 Nicht das jemand den Vater habe gesehen ohne der vom Vater ist, der hat den Vater gesehen.

Tyndale, 1526

The iewes murmured att itt, be cause he sayde: I am thatt breed which is come doune from heven. And they sayde: Is nott this Jesus the sonne of Joseph, whose father, and mother we knowe? How ys yt then thatt he sayeth, I came doune from heven? Jesus answered and sayde vnto them: Murmur not betwene youre selves. No man can come to me except my father which hath sent me, drawe hym. And y will rayse hym vp at the last daye. Hit is written in the prophetes: And they shall all be taught of God. Every man which hath herde, and lerned of the father, commeth unto me, not that eny man hath sene the father, save he which is off God. The same hath sene the father.

Authorized Version

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

    ECHO.

ANSWER TO COWLEY

On the fly-leaf of a copy of Cowley's Works (London, 1668), I find the following lines:—

AN ANSWER TO DRINKING (PAGE 32.)

"The thirsty earth, when one would think
Her dusty throat required more drink,
Wets but her lips, and parts the showers
Among her thousand plants and flowers:
Those take their small and stinted size,
Not drunkard-like, to fall, but rise.
The sober sea observes her tide
Even by the drunken sailor's side;
The roaring rivers pressing high
Seek to get in her company;
She, rising, seems to take the cup,
But other rivers drink all up.