Notes and Queries, Number 72, March 15, 1851

When apples and pears are ripe.
I'll come to your wedding, without any bidding,
And," &c. &c. &c.

Does this mean that I will come without an invitation, or without a marriage-present? It will be observed that Parry is a Welsh name, and that bidding is a Welsh custom, as is shown by Mr. Spurrell (Vol. iii., p. 114.). He has anticipated my intention of sending you a bidding-form, which has been lying upon my table for some weeks, but which I have not had time to transcribe; I now send it you, because it somewhat varies from Mr. Spurrell's, and yet so much resembles it as to show that the same formula is preserved. Both show that the presents are considered as debts, transferable or assignable to other parties. Is this the case in all districts of Wales where the custom of bidding prevails? I think I have heard that in some places the gift is to be returned only when the actual donor "enters into the matrimonial state." It will be observed, too, in these forms, relations only transfer to relations. Is it considered that they may assign to persons not relations? Some of your Welsh correspondents may reply to these questions, which may elucidate all the varieties of practice in a custom which contributes much to the comfort of a young couple, and, in many instances, is an incentive to prudence, because they are aware that the debt is a debt of honour, not to be evaded without some loss of character.

    "December 26. 1806.

"As we intend to enter the Matrimonial State on Tuesday the 20th of January, 1807, we purpose to make a Bidding on the occasion the same day for the young man at his father's house, in the village of Llansaint, in the parish of St. Ishmael; and for the young woman, at her own house, in the said village of Llansaint; at either of which places the favour of your good company on that day will be deemed a peculiar obligation; and whatever donation you may be pleased to confer on either of us then, will be gratefully received, and cheerfully repaid whenever required on a similar occasion, by

    Your humble servants,
    Seth Rees,
    Ann Jenkins.

"The young man's father and mother, and also the young woman's father and mother, and sister Amy, desire that all gifts of the above nature due to them, may be returned on the same day; and will be thankful for all favour shown the young couple."

    E. H.

Minor Queries

Lord of Relton (Vol. iii., p. 56.)—Will your correspondent Monkbarns favour me with the date of the paper from which he copied the paragraph quoted, and whether it was given as being then in use, or as of ancient date?

Can any of your readers inform me from what place the Lord of Relton derived his name? What was his proper name, and who is the present representative of the family?

Is there any family of the name of Relton now existing in the neighbourhood of Langholme, or in Cumberland or Westmoreland?

    F. B. Relton.

Beatrix de Bradney.—In your "Notes And Queries" for January 25th, 1851, p. 61., you have given Sir Henry Chauncy's Observations on Wilfred Entwysel.

Sir Bertin left a daughter named Lucy, of whom Master Bradene of Northamptonshire is descended. Can F. R. R., or any genealogist, inform me whether this Master Bradene is descended from Simon de Bradney, one of the Knights of the Shire for Somersetshire in the year 1346? In Collins's Somersetshire, vol. iii. p. 92., he mentions:

"In St. Michael's Church, Bawdrip, under a large Gothic arch lies the effigy in armour of Sir Simon de Bradney or Bredenie.

"The Manor of Bradney, in Somersetshire, supposed to have ended in Beatrix de Bradney, an heiress, and passed with her into other families; this Beatrix was living in the forty-sixth year of Edward III."

Can you inform me whom she married? About sixty-five years ago it was purchased by the late Joseph Bradney, Esq., of Ham, near Richmond; and his second son, the Reverend Joseph Bradney, of Greet, near Tenbury, Shropshire, is the present possessor.

    Julia R. Bockett.

Southcote Lodge, near Reading.

"Letters on the British Museum."—In the year 1767 was published by Dodsley a work in 12mo. pp. 92., with the above title; and at p. 85. is printed "A Pastoral Dialogue," between Celia and Ebron, beginning, "As Celia rested in the shade," which the author states he "found among the manuscripts." I wish to know, first, who was the anonymous author of these letters; and, secondly, in what collection of manuscripts this "Dialogue" is to be found.

    μ.

Ballad Editing.—The "Outlandish Knight" (Vol. iii.,p. 49.).—I was exceedingly glad to see Mr. F. Sheldon's "valuable contribution to our stock of ballad literature" in the hands of Mr. Rimbault, and thought the treatment it received no better than it deserved. Blackwood, May, 1847, reviewed Mr. Sheldon's book, and pointed out several instances of his "godfathership;" among others, his ballad of the "Outlandish Knight," which he obtained from "a copy in the possession of a gentleman at Newcastle," was condemned by the reviewer as "a vamped version of the Scotch ballad of 'May Collean.'" It may be as the reviewer states, but the question I would wish answered is one affecting the reviewer himself; for, if I mistake not, the Southron "Outlandish Knight" is the original of "May Collean" itself. I have by me a copy, in black letter, of the "Outlandish Knight," English in every respect, and as such differing considerably from Mr. Sheldon's border edition, and from "May Collean;" and, with some slight alterations, the ballad I have is yet popularly known through the midland counties. If any of your correspondents can oblige me with a reference to the first appearance of "May Collean," sheet or book, I shall esteem it a favour.

    Emun.

Birmingham.

Latin Epigram on the Duchess of Eboli.—In his controversy with Bowles touching the poetry of Pope, Byron states that it was upon the Princess of Eboli, mistress of Philip II. of Spain, and Mangirow, the minion of Henry III. of France, that the famous Latin epigram, so well known to classic readers, was composed, concluding with the couplet:

"Blande puer lumen quod habes concede parenti,
Sic tu cæcus Amor, sic erit illa Venus."

Can any contributor to the "Notes and Queries" suggest what authority his lordship has for his statement? Many years since, a curious paragraph appeared in one of the public journals, extracted apparently from an historical work, specifying the extraordinary political embroglios which the one-eyed duchess occasioned, eliciting from one of the statesmen of her times the complimentary declaration, that if she had had two eyes instead of only one, she would have set the universe on fire. A reference to this work—I fancy one of Roscoe's—would be of material service to an historical inquirer.

    C. R. H.

Engraved Portrait.—

"All that thou see'st and readest is divine,
Learning thus us'd is water turn'd to wine;
Well may wee then despaire to draw his minde,
View here the case; i'th Booke the Jewell finde."

The above quatrain is placed beneath a portrait characteristically engraved by Cross. Above the head is the following inscription:—

"Ætatis Suæ 50º. Octob. 10. 1649."

Of whom is this a portrait? It is no doubt well known to collectors, and is of course a frontispiece; but having never yet seen it vis-à-vis with a title-page, I am at a loss as to the author of whom it is the vera effigies. Possibly some of your readers will be kind enough to enlighten me upon the matter, and favour me with the name of the British worthy thus handed down to posterity by Cross's admirable burin.

    Henry Campkin.

Blackstone's Commentaries and Table of Precedence.—The first edition of Blackstone was published at Oxford in 4to., in the year 1765; and the Table of Precedence, in the 12th chapter of the First Book, found in subsequent editions edited by Mr. Christian, does not occur in Blackstone's first edition. Can any of your readers, having access to good legal theories, inform me in which of Blackstone's own editions the Table of Precedence was first inserted?

    E.

The Two Drs. Abercromby.—In the latter half of the seventeenth century, there were two physicians of the name of Abercromby, who both graduated at the university of Leyden, and were afterwards the authors of various published works. The first work of David Abercromby mentioned in Watt's Bibliotheca is dated in 1684, and the first written by Patrick Abercromby in 1707. As it was usual to compose an inaugural dissertation at obtaining the doctorate, and such productions were ordinarily printed (in small quarto), J. K. would feel obliged by the titles and dates of the inaugural dissertations of either or both of the physicians above mentioned.

Witte van Haemstede.—Can any of your readers inform me whether there still exist any descendants of Witte van Haemstede, an illegitimate scion of the ancient house of Holland? Willem de Water, in his Adelijke Zeeland, written in the seventeenth century, says that in his youth he knew a Witte van Haemstede of this family, one of whose sons became pastor of the Dutch congregation in London.—Navorscher, Jan. 1851, p. 17.

J. Bruckner—Dutch Church in Norwich.—In the Gentleman's Magazine for 1804 is a short memoir of the Rev. J. Bruckner. He was born in the island of Cadsand, completed his studies at Leyden, where he enjoyed the society of Hemsterhuis, Valckenaer, and the elder Schultens. In 1753 he became pastor of the Walloon, and afterwards of the Dutch congregation in Norwich, where he remained till his death in May, 1804. In 1767 he published at Leyden his Théorie du Système Animal; in 1790 appeared his Criticisms on the Diversions of Purley.

Could your correspondents furnish me with a complete list of Bruckner's works, and direct me to a history of the Dutch church in Norwich, from its origin to the present time?—Navorscher, Feb. 1851, p. 28.

Minor Queries Answered

[Under this heading we propose to give such Minor Queries as we are able to reply to at once, but which are not of a nature to be answered with advantage in our Notices to Correspondents. We hope by this means to economise our space.]

The Hereditary Earl Marshal.—Miss Martineau, in her History of England, book iii. ch. 8., speaks (in 1829) of

"three Catholic peers, the Duke of Norfolk, Lord Clifford, and Lord Dormer, having obtained entrance at last to the legislative assembly, where their fathers sat and ruled when their faith was the law of the land."

In Lord Campbell's Lives of the Chancellors, there is an anecdote, vol. vii. p. 695., of the Duke of Norfolk falling asleep and snoring in the House of Lords, while Lord Eldon was on the woolsack. Did not the Duke of Norfolk (though Roman Catholic) sit and vote in the House of Lords, either by prescription or special act of parliament, before 1829?

    J. H. S.